The eternal realm of Beauty?
Imaginary Socrates and Plato debate on Beauty
Willed consciousness and localised empathy
Creative Thinking: Philosophy and Science


Just a few concluding comments on non-spatiotemporal objects. If one goes
back to the writings of Plato(I wish that I could read Classical Greek),
he believed that there existed a realm of forms , which contains perfect
items like Beauty, Justice, and Piety. A beautiful woman, for example, is
beautiful to the extent that she resembles Beauty itself. Obviously, the
ravages of time will(sadly) gradually diminish her beauty. According to
Plato, the Forms are eternal and unchanging. Beauty itself was, is, and
will always be the same. How do we apprehend these forms. We understand
the physical world through our senses. The forms can only be grasped
through mental reflection.

At the end of Book Six in Plato's Republic he offers up a metaphor of a
divided line:


_________________     BEING

Mathematical Objects


Physical Objects
__________________  becoming


This metaphor suggests that physical objects are"reflections" of
mathematical objects which are "reflections" of forms.

Plato believed that geometrical objects such as triangles are not
physical, that they are eternal and unchanging. Moreover, he believed that
the subject-matter of geometry is a realm of objects that exist
independent of the human mind, language, and so on.

One may do well to remember the sign above the entrance to Plato's
Academy, ' Let no one ignorant of geometry enter here.' Plato viewed the
study of mathematics as a gateway into the world of Being!

I believe that Plato's world of forms was something closely akin to
heaven. What do you think?

P.S. The majority of my comments above are taken from the book THINKING
ABOUT MATHEMATICS by Stewart Shapiro, Professor of Philosophy at the Ohio
State University and Professorial Fellow of Logic and Metaphysics at he
University of St. Andrews, Scotland.

If one wants to delve deeper, Plato's REPUBLIC is the original source and
there is a book entitled PLATO'S PHILOSOPHY OF MATHEMATICS by A. Wedberg
which I am in the process of obtaining.

P.S.-2 Do we discover stories, musical compositions, haiku, mathematical
proofs, etc,(Do they already exist in some abstract sense) or DO WE INVENT
THEM (Are they totally products of our brains)? This is the question?
Best regards,

Hi Mead! I think Plato may well hold mathematics as something offering an eternal grasp and feel, because his tutor (Socrates) would decimate any theory or philosophy that was not nailed down onto a bed of careful inner analysis and hard core fact.
I think Socrates would have jumped on him quickly with the 'beauty' statement.

A beautiful woman, for example, is
beautiful to the extent that she resembles Beauty itself. Obviously, the
ravages of time will(sadly) gradually diminish her beauty. According to
Plato, the Forms are eternal and unchanging. Beauty itself was, is, and
will always be the same.

Socrates would seize onto all the contradictions in this passage and form a series of questions that the pupil would answer, until the pupil's statement would prove false by his (pupil's) own admission. But a window into a new idea would be opened to both tutor and pupil. I'll try to be Socrates and Plato here:
Soc: So Beauty was, is and will always be the same?
Plato: As I see it.
Soc: Then, dear Plato, what is Beauty?
Plato: Something that is pleasing to the eye
Soc: A woman can be beautiful?
Plato: She can resemble beauty itself.
Soc: Yet this beauty will diminish?
Plato: Sadly, yes.
Soc: In essence, are you saying that the female form is capable of resembling beauty?
Plato: I am.
Soc: Look at the wall to your left. There is a female spider. Do you think that she resembles beauty?
Plato: I do not, though a male spider may think so.
Soc: Do you think a male spider would consider a woman as beautiful?
Plato: No more than the woman would so consider the spider.
Soc: How would you describe your emotional attachment to your mother?
Plato: I love her most dearly.
Soc: But her beauty has diminished over time. You do not consider her beautiful?
Plato: Well... perhaps not in the strictest form.
Soc: Would you agree that the opposite to beautiful is Ugly?
Plato: I would.
Soc: So your mother has lost her beauty and has become Ugly?
Plato: I would challenge any man who called her so.
Soc: And so you should. But, dear Plato, if she has lost her beauty and yet is not become ugly? What form impresses you when you see her?
Plato: Respectful. Competent. An awareness of her love for me.
Soc: Do you not feel that perhaps she may find you, whatever may occur, beautiful?
Plato: I'm not sure if that's a suitable term for a male.
Soc: Then this eternal realm is reserved simply for females?
Plato: No. I am saying that a female can resemble beauty. But it is through mental reflection that we recognise the eternal realm.
Soc: There is Cloda, the whore who services the sailors in the town. I think we all agree she resembles beauty. Perhaps some of us have used our mental reflection to recognise that. Do you agree, dear Plato, that she is visually pleasing?
Plato: I do.
Soc: But her beauty will diminish, and if her coin proves insufficient she will be cast out on the street as an ugly crone reliant on begging. Do you view this progression as beautiful?
Plato: It is not.
Soc: There is Clymna of Thebes. I think we all agree that she resembles beauty. Yet she cuckolded her devoted husband and poisoned him for attempted profit. Do you feel there is any beauty in this?
Plato: Only within her physical form.
Soc: So, dear Plato, which physical form is most pleasing to your eyes and mental reflection? Cloda, Clymna or your mother?

I hope I have represented Socrates well enough to display his profound debating qualities. I know Plato tried to display this also. Uncurbed by Socrates, Plato stumbled into an abstract world where absolutism reigned unchallenged - and the seeds of fascism and elitism were insufficently modified.
My experience is that 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder'. I believe Socrates would have worked a debate to a similar conclusion. A fly would find our excrement a beautiful thing. The soil we exist on is billions of years of excrement. There is rock that is formed by countless skeletons. Grass is mould. But the individual atoms that form this and everything remain beautiful and untouched.

An excellent piece. You are absolutely correct as Socrates would not have
approved of Plato's eternal world of forms. In fact, Socrates practiced no
mathematics, to my knowledge, but he was a master of rhetoric and honed
his Socratic method to that of an intellectual scapel. During your travels
did you ever meet a modern day Socrates?

Take care,

Hi Mead! In answer to the question: Have I met a Socrates on my travels?
The answer is no. But the legacy of Socrates can be found in lawyer training and the courts. The problem is that the Romans probably adapted his style to prove the innocence of clients even if they were guilty and the guilt of opponents even if they were innocent. This developed into the side product of rhetoric and on to the bottom line of propaganda.
I would suggest that Socrates had pre-conceived ideas, but that he would test these and adapt them during debate. With each debate his conception would further develop. I think Socrates may have felt like an adult in a sea of children who showed little sign of growing up.
Perhaps he took his poison with a sense of relief, much as Jesus took up his cross.

The eternal realm of Beauty?

Labyrinth busker journal

More like this

Can you give me an example of a non-spatiotemporal object(i.e., an object
that is nonphysical, nonmental, and acausal)?

Hi Mead!
Willed consciousness is regarded by some to be separate from the mental process of the brain. The latter seeks to unravel a temporal rationale onto the former. But if mental and physical processes are unable to alter willed consciousness? Then what is the point of temporal existence.
The trouble is, people tend to think of the body that harbours the brain as the vessel for willed consciousness. This has led to what I feel is somewhat delusional belief. There is the annoying Christian dogma that we have one life - after which we will be judged by someone and flung into Hell or given a permanent paradise in Heaven where lions don't eat deer, where neighbourhood watch is unnecessary, and where the poor need not apply.
There is the idea of re-incarnation, where we feel our present identity is so important that we refuse to accept its loss.
But then I observed the masses of medocrity around me - and took the time to realise the mediocrity that is me... and I can only assume the willed consciousness that propells me will look at my life with a frowned disappointment.
The issue within me is this:
Our body is like a pond. A pond needs the input of fresh water to maintain its existence. But if each h2o molecule was an identity with a unique sense of imperative, then the pond will eventually consist of a compendium of new identities supplanting the old. The pond remains in existence, but the communal sense of imperative has changed.
Our body mirrors this process through the input of food, drink and gases. Our bodies and brain are faced with rationalising all of this molecular intake against the backdrop of willed consciousness.
Perhaps this is all painstakingly obvious. Simply common knowledge leading nowhere.
Unless you come across a theory similar to the one that has been percolating within me recently.
Is willed consciousness being diluted by the world market (i.e. meat from Australia, veg from Africa, rice from China).?
Are we being bombarded by new imperatives unrelated to our old imperatives? And are our old imperatives unable to return and remind us of the need for empathy (because they received empathy aplenty in their journey back home)?

The eternal realm of Beauty?
Willed consciousness and localised empathy
Creative Thinking: Philosophy and Science

The eternal realm of Beauty?
Willed consciousness and localised empathy
Creative Thinking: Philosophy and Science

Brian Robert Pearce
Brian Pearce busked the streets and bars of Europe between the years 1994 and 2000. In addition he busked in New York while participating in the TIGHTROPE musical, a play written by Ken Post [ with Bonnie Burns].
The journal exists, at present, as approx. 750,000 hand written words formatted in about 55 segments

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A buskerbrian history of time:

Belief, Heaven and Zolar

In the esoteric 'world' of Zolar it was claimed that the Astral plane contained several layers (levels) - and that souls, after death, will eventually ascend to the level where their beliefs become true. What they expected to see is what they see (in essence).

Universe sequences

All this suggests that though the universe is expanding there is also retraction. It is quite likely that the speed of light is variable and it could be possible that time itself can speed up or slow down.
In fact, if time is simply temperature and resultant motion? Then it does speed up and slow down.
The constant 8 has the rule book.

White and Black sheep societies

Antigone chose to openly defy the 'White sheep' laws of her country - and her death brought strong repercussions.
She challenged the belief of society with her own belief.. and death did not remove the idea of her belief. The city had to look at itself - more so, after her death.

The societies within

But the other person and I meet... and the way we respond to each other is via the universe of inner nations within our independent bodies. The oppression and free expression of all these nations will formulate my psyche, and the psyche of the other person.


Her eyes were ready to take control... to bravely dominate and protect... more in the image of a chivalrous knight in shining armour. With souls, gender is not always true to the body.

The inner gender conflict

We are all, whatever our actual gender, a mix of feminine and masculine impulses. This doesn't make the average person gay - not in the slightest. Sexual attraction remains on the opposite sex, yet triggered by conflicting gender impulse.

Mentoring - autism and hurricanes

Autism would render him as a loner, an outsider. There will always be parts of him the world will never see, nor understand.
So, back to the question:
Do you think Bob Dylan is mildly autistic?

Missing Link?

"Humans" invade Earth from Veritas, a broken fragment from their former world.
Evolution by ingestion of 'human' microbes released amongst the cosmic dust
and fragments of two asteroids colliding in space 8.2 million years ago?

Explosive Time

It seems clear to me that the implication of this is that timespeed is also the measure of the activity we term as 'explosion'. Our bodies and the microorganisms that surround us are reliant on explosions occurring at a minimum and maximum rate of time speed.
In addition, all forces and gravitational effects within the universe are caused by this effect of timespeed. Life in the universe can probably be found everywhere.

Mentoring - crusades and psychology

The knowledge of her guardians and her former life saw her face the man down and she only fled into quaking once she was home and safe.

Perhaps you could ask the child how this dreamscape could be used beneficially within his life. It may prepare him for the moment when such knowledge will save his life.

Plato and Socrates debate Beauty

A fly would find our excrement a beautiful thing. The soil we exist on is billions of years of excrement. There is rock that is formed by countless skeletons. Grass is mould. But the individual atoms that form this and everything remain beautiful and untouched.

Mentoring - Light, Heaven and Black holes

For God to be omnipotent, it would indicate an ability akin to 'rocket science' in comparison to a man restricted to walking everywhere. It could be argued that souls whizzing at the speed of light fits this analogy fine.
But can you see the limitations for souls (and God) within that argument?

Jesus? Celtic or Rangers?

The same guy then said, " Jesus will introduce us to the Good Life!"
This fired me further, " What is the Good Life? It seems to me that you need to experience the despair of bad times to appreciate the value of good times. How can you know the difference without this?"

Asperger's Syndrome

Asperger's syndrome is a blessing to the world. It promises the production of the most essential element of a progressive society: the individual.

How old is the Sun?

With temperature receding toward the edge of the solar system, then time will recede accordingly. Therefore the planets are travelling greater distances at radically lower timespeeds than the Sun.

Dust Devils and Llamas

Take a look at the end part of the 'dust devil' clip. There almost seems to be an object speeding along in front of it.

The frontiers of behaviour in war and sectarianism

Even a peace loving philosopher may be tested to the full, as he holds a loaded gun and stares at a member of a rival faction that has murdered his family and loved ones.
The gun is loaded.
The rival faction member is a naked prisoner.
No one is going to stop you from doing what you please with him.

Imagination should outstrip proof

It is a case of visualising beyond what we can see and seeking the questions that may unveil significant answers. It is not the proof of my statement that matters. Rather, it is the journey we undertake to seek such proof. We must see what we see and imagine what we can't see.

Potential to be Hitler or Gandhi

My defining term for conformists are 'White Sheep'. My term for those who have something unique and potentially beneficial to the world that can only be delivered through forms of non-conformity is 'Black Sheep'. Within the mechanism of this (apparently) simple definition is everything from Hitler to Gandhi. It is important to recognise in which camp you should reside, because then it is easier to recognise that one camp needs the other.

Armageddon - outer sphere

There are fantastic websites on the web dealing with suns and planets (not so far from our own) that can excite the imagination of the questor for speculative random theories. Is our solar system an oasis of peace or a default normality?  Is this oasis threatened by events occurring 12 light years away?
Tau Ceti could be the point where an opposing universe is in collision. It seems we could be 12 light years away from a force that threatens our solar system as we know it.

Sarah - the inner memory

The inner memory seems to isolate and calculate dates, or sequences. Maybe even the mutual will to make love is because the inner memories of two people recognise an optimum sequence for a child -even if no child emerges, or is actively wanted by the lovers. The inner memory recognises, all the same, the optimum moment of harmony within its perception of UNIVERSAL sequences

Labyrinth Busker Journal - Brian Robert Pearce


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